My Last Word On A Tired Subject (feat. Gary Fogelson)

What follows is a re-formatted chat with designer Gary Fogelson of Fogelson-Lubliner and Gary Fogelson fame. Aside from being a stand-up dude who is recognized within his industry, he has many sound observations on the tired subject of free work and free-work-for-exposure experiences.

6:30 PM

Rich Gin: how often do you get asked to do free stuff

Gary Fogelson: rarely asked

Gary Fogelson: although we do some pro bono stuff for tax breaks

Gary Fogelson: "in kind" donations

Gary Fogelson: but that only works for non profits

Rich Gin: right

Rich Gin: such a curious thing, the differences between perceived value of photography and the perceived value of design and illustration

Gary Fogelson: people don't value photography because they think that if they had the right camera they could do your job

6:35 PM

Rich Gin: tough break

Gary Fogelson: too bad it's true

Rich Gin: Have you had this conversation w/ Jac?

Gary Fogelson: all the time

Rich Gin: lol

Rich Gin: life is unbearable

Gary Fogelson: it's a huge problem

Gary Fogelson: for photographers

Gary Fogelson: it sucks

Gary Fogelson: edit

Gary Fogelson: for photographers that want to make money

Rich Gin: truth bomb

Gary Fogelson: i mean, we wanted her to shoot a job for us but they couldn't afford her
so we ended up doing it ourselves

Gary Fogelson: and it was kind of wack

Gary Fogelson: i mean

Gary Fogelson: we got good stuff

Gary Fogelson: but hers would have been so much better

Gary Fogelson: but there's nothing we could do

Gary Fogelson: alo

Gary Fogelson: ha

Gary Fogelson: also

Gary Fogelson: flickr sucks for that shit too

Rich Gin: When I was first starting work in television, there was a spell where I was doing low-budget jobs, but people would still give you a token amount (which usually accounted for transportation) out of an overall respect for your time and because you are MORE LIKELY to have someone do something for you if it seems like you are making an effort.

Rich Gin: They got me through Ted.

Rich Gin: Flickr is an unfortunate situation, really.

Gary Fogelson: i mean

Gary Fogelson: people can treat flickr like a stock source

Gary Fogelson: and most flickr users are willing to do it for little compensation since they already took the photo and they're amateurs

Rich Gin: people DO treat Flickr like a stock source. You saw the shit in the NYT, right?

Gary Fogelson: digital cameras also suck

Gary Fogelson: no i didn't

Rich Gin: http://www.aphotoeditor.com/2009/06/25/nytimes-advocates-stealing-photos-from-flickr-to-decorate/

Gary Fogelson: yeah...

Gary Fogelson: i dunno bout that one though

Gary Fogelson: it's your fault for posting a high res photo

Gary Fogelson: that's why flickr is tarded

Gary Fogelson: for example

Gary Fogelson: from my POV, since i'm not a professional photographer

Gary Fogelson: if someone printed out a photo of mine and framed it, i'd be weired

Gary Fogelson: weirded

Gary Fogelson: but i wouldn't be banging down their door for some money

Gary Fogelson: because it's not my livelihood

Gary Fogelson: but that's how most of flickr is

Gary Fogelson: which causes this problem for the whole industry

Gary Fogelson: the concept of photography as open source or something

6:45 PM

Rich Gin: It's a tiring argument and discussion to have, I guess. I've had it many times myself. I just never thought to ask someone who makes visual stuff for a living

Gary Fogelson: yeah

Gary Fogelson: it's just a value issue

Rich Gin: "visual stuff" /= photography

Gary Fogelson: right

Gary Fogelson: also

Gary Fogelson: i think people also look at photography differently than design because photographers are
"just" capturing images that already exist

Gary Fogelson: (not my opinion)

Rich Gin: true

Gary Fogelson: as opposed to designers, artists, etc who are making it up from nowhere

6:50 PM

Rich Gin: semantic point: I think the use of "capturing" to describe the manufacturing process of photographs is lame. It's like you're a kid in a field hunting for butterflies or some shit.

Gary Fogelson: that's sort of my point

Gary Fogelson: although it depends on the photographer

Gary Fogelson: in the case of the photographs i take, that's all i'm doing

Gary Fogelson: but not in the case of jacqueline

Gary Fogelson: or you for that matter

Rich Gin: You honor me

7:00 PM

Gary Fogelson: ha

Rich Gin: I should just become one of those dudes that sells sunset pictures on the boardwalk

Gary Fogelson: totally

Gary Fogelson: no shortage of sunsets

Rich Gin: like Thomas Kinkade without the shifty Christianity and franchising.

7:05 PM

Gary Fogelson: true

Rich Gin: I have to go talk to some food about this.

Gary Fogelson: okay

Gary Fogelson: have fun

Rich Gin: would you mind terribly if I blogged this? I need something to fill 1's and 0's with.

Gary Fogelson: nope

Gary Fogelson: i don't know what that means though

Gary Fogelson: 1's and 0's

Gary Fogelson: not "blogged"

Gary Fogelson: i'm familiar with that

Rich Gin: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Binary_numeral_system

Gary Fogelson: oh those kinds of 1's and 0's

Gary Fogelson: i'm familiar with those

An afterthought of sorts. There is never enough work to go around -- anyone working in a creative field or freelancing knows this, but asking people to provide work for free isn't providing a job. I had mentioned my past experiences getting into production work when I was first out of school; an honorarium for the worker to show appreciation for spent time. In retrospect, it's a remarkable thing how much you can get out of someone just for showing the consideration. That's where my real beef in all this is: The lack of consideration by a publication for the providers of their content. Their unwillingness to pay or claims of poverty suggest,

1) Evidence of their broken system (this is not even a controversial point these days).

2) Their lack of respect for their providers (we need stuff to fill space, but we really don't care what it is, otherwise we would go through the effort to get full cooperation of the best-qualified sources).

3) A lack of respect for their own product (see: #2).

I hope this will be my last public conversation about this, though I am sure it won't. I already have follow-up questions for other people in other industries about this same sort of thing.

In Local News...

Just walked down Smith St. and watched the paps stalking our friendly local celebrity. They were trying to be so sly about it too -- standing on the corner with their phones to their ears (pretending to call, surely -- why would they want to give anyone else info on where they were or who they were shooting?). Playacting as if their job was important or high-intensity. When she walked past they would hurry along behind her on the opposite side of the street; it just seemed so unnecessary. Granted, I've seen celebrity hunting in Manhattan many, many times and it seems unnecessary there too but now it was too close to home. There's definitely a bad taste in my mouth.

Overheard in Brooklyn (Two Parts)

An earnest conversation overheard at Bar Tabac,

Girl 1: ...and so like, Sasha was like, going to McCarren Pool last week for a free concert and I was like, why...?

Girl 2: A concert at McCarren Pool?

Girl 1: They do free shows there. It's in Williamsburg.

Girl 3: (earnestly) Have I met her? Is she a hipster or a fashionista?

An earnest conversation overheard at Bar Tabac (II),

Boy: Johnny was always kind of a hipster. He just never had any hipster friends.

Fuck You, That's My Name

Miami, Florida has become my least favorite place on the planet supplanting Chadds Ford, PA and Orlando, FL. To a wo/man, the waitstaff at local eateries and the Delano hotel staff were rude, lazy, exclusionary and arrogant towards paying guests (i.e. ME, and the rest of the crew). I then became rude back and spent my three (3) days there in a combative rage.

A series of examples:

EXAMPLE 1

Richard is in the SHOWER, having ordered room service the night before. There is a KNOCK at the DOOR.

Room Service: Room service!

Me: (From the shower) Leave it there, please!

Room Service: Room service!

Me: (From the shower) Leave it there, please!

Room Service: Room service!

Me: (From the shower) Leave it there!

There is silence as Richard finishes his shower. And exits to find there is NO FOOD LEFT EITHER INSIDE OR OUTSIDE BY THE DOOR IN SPITE OF REPEATED REQUESTS TO LEAVE THE FOOD. Not only that, upon checkout Richard finds that his vanished meal IS ON THE BILL. When Richard goes to the front desk to protest, he is greeted by a DESK CLERK.

Desk Clerk: Can I help you?

Me: Yes, I...

(A woman appears from behind Richard holding a cell phone.)

Desk Clerk: Yes Ma'am, can I help you?

Me: (stares; addresses Desk Clerk) I'm sorry, was I not just standing here?

Desk Clerk: (stares)

Me: (stares)

Desk Clerk: (to the woman) How can I help you, ma'am?

Richard proceeds to stare at the Desk Clerk's Assistant until the Desk Clerk's Assistant decided to come over and help. Powerless, Richard decides to change every other word in his vocabulary to "Fuck" in full earshot of the CHILDREN behind him while staring at the Desk Clerk.

EXAMPLE 2

Richard returns from a walk around town with his BACKPACK and CAMERA through the beach-side entrance, flashing his GUEST CARD to the SECURITY DETAIL upon entry

Security Detail: Sir, you'll have to check your camera.

Me: But I'm staying here at the hotel.

Security Detail: Sir, they don't allow photography here.

Me: I'm not taking pictures. Besides, I was taking pictures last night and they didn't say anything THEN (see image above --Ed.)..

Security Detail: You'll have to put it away.

Me: Well I have to go to my room to put it away.

Security Detail: You'll have to put it in your backpack.

Me: MY BACKPACK IS FULL.

Security Detail: (stares)

Me: (stares)

EXIT Richard toward the lobby, knowing he won that little battle.

EXAMPLE 3

Richard is working with the crew in a small-ish CONFERENCE ROOM with many LARGE, HEAVY TABLES and ROLLING CHAIRS. They call the CUSTODIAL STAFF to remove the tables and chairs, a common production custom.

Crewmember: Yes, we'd like to have these chairs and tables taken away, please.

Custodian: We've nowhere to put them.

Crewmember: What?

Custodian: They're big and there's no space to put them anywhere else. Besides,
(whining)
they're HEAVY!

Crewmember: Yes, we know they're heavy.

END SCENE FOR EDITORIAL CONTENT

Now, custodial and janitorial staff in hotels gets PAID to move stuff all day long. They get paid to move things and sweep and bring food to people regardless of whether something is heavy or not because it is their JOB. The hotel had known that we were coming for at LEAST a month; knew our requirements beforehand and chose to not honor them. Rather than act as if they were in a SERVICE INDUSTRY, they acted as if WE were the ones putting THEM out.

EXAMPLE 4

Waiter at Nemo: Would you like to see the desert menu?

Me: Yes, thank you.
(reads)
I'm curious, and going out on a limb here... ...would the chef prepare ONE of the buttermilk donuts? I'll pay for it, but more than that would be wasteful. I'm just curious.

W@N: (curtly) No.

Me: Really.

W@N: (curtly) I don't think they'd go for it.

Me: You know they won't, or you don't THINK they will?

W@N: (curtly) They won't go for it.

Me: (stares)

W@N: (stares)

Me: I see.

W@N: (curtly) They're little.

Me: That's irrelevant, really.

(The waiter goes)

Me: (To Crewmember) He didn't even pretend to go ask.

Crewmember: Yeah... I mean, he should know that if he pulls that off or at least tries to pull it off, it goes towards his tip.

Me: I know, right? It's easier than that. You go around the corner, have a cigarette, come back and say "no," you don't just say it outright.

Crewmember: Fuck him. He gets stiffed.

Me: That's the spirit.

The waiter is stiffed on his tip. END SCENE

Pitchfork

This is really inexcusable. Over at ILX bagging on Pitchfork is basically a sport, but for some reason I take shit like this personally. How hard is it for the most-read* music review site on the internet to get someone to take quality pictures; or even a notch above amateur. I'm not talking about people like Todd or Kathryn Yu, both of whom are All-City type talents. It's not like this is Podunk, Arkansas we're talking about. This is Chicago.

*This might not be true. File under "Stat-free Analysis."

Where We're From, The Birds Sing A Pretty Song

Subtitled: Emo Bird Is Emo



Today, sharing images with you brings me no joy, and I think my dead-bird friend here kind of says it all.

I'm getting audited and as much as I'd like to play it off as another life experience, it's a very lonely feeling right now, especially since they're asking for info from 2005 which I don't really have in any sort of complete form, and there's a big chunk of change that they're curious about that I have no documentation on AT ALL. I certainly won't have it by Monday (which is Opening Day, the first day of Spring). The numbers that we're talking about in terms of money are sort of nebulous to me and I have no cotton-pickin' idea why they'd want to audit me to begin with, short of 2005 being the first year I actually rose above the poverty line.

I've been asked by my friends, who are fearful of the same thing happening to them, to take good notes ... So in short terms, let this be a lesson to you, kiddies: keep EVERYTHING. One of my head-slapping moments was realizing that I had shredded 2005's phone bills literally 12 hours before the audit summons arrived in the mail. That said, they say to keep this sort of shit for 7 years. There isn't that much space in my universe.

Ironic Photos of Monticello New York Kennel Club Dog Show, Secaucus, NJ, 2007

This is another series that came about from a work situation, and the pictures I took might hint at my frame of mind more so than I'd like to make public. I speak of course about my great dislike of most people and fondness for animals, who are of course innocents in all of the nonsense of this world. And at the dog show, both my likes and dislikes collided in spectacular fashion.

There's a Bresson quote about a connection that needs to be made between "...the eye and the heart" and while it may be true, the question is what I see in my heart when I take something like this:



Bresson and Avedon and Penn and Edward Steichen and all the other great photographers had and have a great fondness for the people of this world and the connection to their place in it is what made and makes them great. My distrust and distaste for people shows through, I think, and I wonder if it holds me back creatively. Suze (see previous entry here), in one of her finer moments said that I can't take pretty pictures of people, that I took 'warts 'n' all' pictures and that my inability to do an unselfconciously flattering portrait was a great talent that I should embrace. It's all well and good, I suppouse, to be gifted (if true) with a predisposition to recognizing ugliness or some God-awful truth about humanity, but it doesn't really sell. Even Natchwey sees something beautiful in the struggle. I don't know if I do.

And back to my previous thoughts about the Flickr web-hit flow of traffic. Assume for a minute that I take unflattering pictures as a rule and that someday I am great at it -- I wonder if someone will see these pictures, and know a person in them and understand that I take unflattering pictures. Or if they'll see them, and ask they be taken down because of it.

Oi.

PR Lady: You should meet this girl on stage now! She's going to be the next Gwen Stefani?

RG: WHAT.

Pr Lady: She's AWESOME!

RG: WHO?

Pr Lady:

RG: OOOOOHHH...