My Last Word On A Tired Subject (feat. Gary Fogelson)

What follows is a re-formatted chat with designer Gary Fogelson of Fogelson-Lubliner and Gary Fogelson fame. Aside from being a stand-up dude who is recognized within his industry, he has many sound observations on the tired subject of free work and free-work-for-exposure experiences.

6:30 PM

Rich Gin: how often do you get asked to do free stuff

Gary Fogelson: rarely asked

Gary Fogelson: although we do some pro bono stuff for tax breaks

Gary Fogelson: "in kind" donations

Gary Fogelson: but that only works for non profits

Rich Gin: right

Rich Gin: such a curious thing, the differences between perceived value of photography and the perceived value of design and illustration

Gary Fogelson: people don't value photography because they think that if they had the right camera they could do your job

6:35 PM

Rich Gin: tough break

Gary Fogelson: too bad it's true

Rich Gin: Have you had this conversation w/ Jac?

Gary Fogelson: all the time

Rich Gin: lol

Rich Gin: life is unbearable

Gary Fogelson: it's a huge problem

Gary Fogelson: for photographers

Gary Fogelson: it sucks

Gary Fogelson: edit

Gary Fogelson: for photographers that want to make money

Rich Gin: truth bomb

Gary Fogelson: i mean, we wanted her to shoot a job for us but they couldn't afford her
so we ended up doing it ourselves

Gary Fogelson: and it was kind of wack

Gary Fogelson: i mean

Gary Fogelson: we got good stuff

Gary Fogelson: but hers would have been so much better

Gary Fogelson: but there's nothing we could do

Gary Fogelson: alo

Gary Fogelson: ha

Gary Fogelson: also

Gary Fogelson: flickr sucks for that shit too

Rich Gin: When I was first starting work in television, there was a spell where I was doing low-budget jobs, but people would still give you a token amount (which usually accounted for transportation) out of an overall respect for your time and because you are MORE LIKELY to have someone do something for you if it seems like you are making an effort.

Rich Gin: They got me through Ted.

Rich Gin: Flickr is an unfortunate situation, really.

Gary Fogelson: i mean

Gary Fogelson: people can treat flickr like a stock source

Gary Fogelson: and most flickr users are willing to do it for little compensation since they already took the photo and they're amateurs

Rich Gin: people DO treat Flickr like a stock source. You saw the shit in the NYT, right?

Gary Fogelson: digital cameras also suck

Gary Fogelson: no i didn't

Rich Gin: http://www.aphotoeditor.com/2009/06/25/nytimes-advocates-stealing-photos-from-flickr-to-decorate/

Gary Fogelson: yeah...

Gary Fogelson: i dunno bout that one though

Gary Fogelson: it's your fault for posting a high res photo

Gary Fogelson: that's why flickr is tarded

Gary Fogelson: for example

Gary Fogelson: from my POV, since i'm not a professional photographer

Gary Fogelson: if someone printed out a photo of mine and framed it, i'd be weired

Gary Fogelson: weirded

Gary Fogelson: but i wouldn't be banging down their door for some money

Gary Fogelson: because it's not my livelihood

Gary Fogelson: but that's how most of flickr is

Gary Fogelson: which causes this problem for the whole industry

Gary Fogelson: the concept of photography as open source or something

6:45 PM

Rich Gin: It's a tiring argument and discussion to have, I guess. I've had it many times myself. I just never thought to ask someone who makes visual stuff for a living

Gary Fogelson: yeah

Gary Fogelson: it's just a value issue

Rich Gin: "visual stuff" /= photography

Gary Fogelson: right

Gary Fogelson: also

Gary Fogelson: i think people also look at photography differently than design because photographers are
"just" capturing images that already exist

Gary Fogelson: (not my opinion)

Rich Gin: true

Gary Fogelson: as opposed to designers, artists, etc who are making it up from nowhere

6:50 PM

Rich Gin: semantic point: I think the use of "capturing" to describe the manufacturing process of photographs is lame. It's like you're a kid in a field hunting for butterflies or some shit.

Gary Fogelson: that's sort of my point

Gary Fogelson: although it depends on the photographer

Gary Fogelson: in the case of the photographs i take, that's all i'm doing

Gary Fogelson: but not in the case of jacqueline

Gary Fogelson: or you for that matter

Rich Gin: You honor me

7:00 PM

Gary Fogelson: ha

Rich Gin: I should just become one of those dudes that sells sunset pictures on the boardwalk

Gary Fogelson: totally

Gary Fogelson: no shortage of sunsets

Rich Gin: like Thomas Kinkade without the shifty Christianity and franchising.

7:05 PM

Gary Fogelson: true

Rich Gin: I have to go talk to some food about this.

Gary Fogelson: okay

Gary Fogelson: have fun

Rich Gin: would you mind terribly if I blogged this? I need something to fill 1's and 0's with.

Gary Fogelson: nope

Gary Fogelson: i don't know what that means though

Gary Fogelson: 1's and 0's

Gary Fogelson: not "blogged"

Gary Fogelson: i'm familiar with that

Rich Gin: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Binary_numeral_system

Gary Fogelson: oh those kinds of 1's and 0's

Gary Fogelson: i'm familiar with those

An afterthought of sorts. There is never enough work to go around -- anyone working in a creative field or freelancing knows this, but asking people to provide work for free isn't providing a job. I had mentioned my past experiences getting into production work when I was first out of school; an honorarium for the worker to show appreciation for spent time. In retrospect, it's a remarkable thing how much you can get out of someone just for showing the consideration. That's where my real beef in all this is: The lack of consideration by a publication for the providers of their content. Their unwillingness to pay or claims of poverty suggest,

1) Evidence of their broken system (this is not even a controversial point these days).

2) Their lack of respect for their providers (we need stuff to fill space, but we really don't care what it is, otherwise we would go through the effort to get full cooperation of the best-qualified sources).

3) A lack of respect for their own product (see: #2).

I hope this will be my last public conversation about this, though I am sure it won't. I already have follow-up questions for other people in other industries about this same sort of thing.

They Only Played To A Few Hundred People In Their Lifetime, But Those That Heard Them Immediately Formed A Band

Greetings to those of you visiting through the Flickr back door. As part of my value-added content, I would like to point out that the additional photos of The Mighty Handful from the 17th of May, 2008 are below. However I encourage you to read the following notice to discover how you, the reader, might be able to impact the life of a misguided youth for the better.

With the possible exceptions of cash paydays and booty calls, there's very little pleasure in finding something out on short notice, and with that in mind I am happy to report to you (a week in advance!) that The Mighty Handful (my favoritest) are playing The Big Stage at the Knitting Factory on Sunday the 25th. Now, the Knitting Factory -- shitty lighting aside -- is a brand-name venue which leads to its own level of fun-ness. Amplifying the fun-ness further is the fact that this show is a Battle of the Bands. Great. Boosting the signal to tsunami-like levels is the promise of a trip to Ireland for the winning group and an invitation to an international battle of the bands.

SO WHAT DOES THIS MEAN FOR YOU?

If you care at all about the fate of these young turks (and you should at this point, especially seeing as how I won't shut up about them), then you will purchase tickets, go to the show and support them with all your might. For just ten (10) United States Dollars -- that's just $1.68 USD a day from now until Sunday -- you could change the life of a poor, Park Slope youth whose debaucherous promise is held back by a sensible Park Slope upbringing. If you have any questions regarding this matter it is in your best interest to contact the band directly as my details are sketchy at best.

Tickets are available through Ticketmaster, which is no longer an issue because the 90's are over and Pearl Jam lost.

But don't take my word for it. Let them tell you, in their own words, why you should go:

So we won that random battle of the bands.

TURNS OUT THE FUCKING PRIZE WAS
A SHOW AT THE KNITTING FACTORY.

If we win, we will go to ireland to compete against other high school bands from all over the world.

COME AND SUPPORT US
MAKE US FAMOUS
WE LOVE YOU ALL<333

SAME RULES APPLY:

BRING INSTRUMENTS
BRING CONFETTI
BRING GLITTER
BRING ANYYYTHING.

I Feel Like I'm Moving Further Away From It.

It's been almost a week since I shot Radiates and because I am old and my memory fades easily, I'm having a difficult time recalling details. Seeing as I'm left with impressions, I have managed to make the lamest music review since that time that Chris Ott reviewed the Slanted And Enchanted reissue for Pitchfork with the [awful], scanned, hand-written pages.

As we might (or might not) remember, being young means curfew and the promise of swift and brutal justice at the hands of parentals if curfew is broken. This is not all together unjustified as The City is a horrible place full of crazies and situations that would put Young White Girls In Peril. In short, I get the point. This leads to a certain problem for young bands that draw the last straw and go on with the post-curfew slot in a three-act bill: You have no one to play to, or the number of people has decreased to the point where the room is half empty. Sad story, bro.

Please recall the Ideal Gas Law, which can be used to show that the pressure of a gas (particles) in a small volume is greater than that of an equal amount of gas (particles) in a large volume.

Because the Ideal Gas law is expressed as an equation (PV=nRT), you can also determine how small a volume has to be to achieve the same pressure with fewer particles. Of course, people don't react in the same way that a gas does -- they'll go where the want to. It's up to the band to make them want to go. With that in mind, I think this illustration makes sense:



I call it Gin's Ideal Crowd Law.

In practical terms:

Suzie

Fuck the Heatherette Afterparty. I finally got a few decent frames of my Sphinx.



(Techie Richard: Another example of why I should move to the newer digitals -- my fondness for ramping the gain up and open rather than carry around a strobe pack.)