My Last Word On A Tired Subject (feat. Gary Fogelson)

What follows is a re-formatted chat with designer Gary Fogelson of Fogelson-Lubliner and Gary Fogelson fame. Aside from being a stand-up dude who is recognized within his industry, he has many sound observations on the tired subject of free work and free-work-for-exposure experiences.

6:30 PM

Rich Gin: how often do you get asked to do free stuff

Gary Fogelson: rarely asked

Gary Fogelson: although we do some pro bono stuff for tax breaks

Gary Fogelson: "in kind" donations

Gary Fogelson: but that only works for non profits

Rich Gin: right

Rich Gin: such a curious thing, the differences between perceived value of photography and the perceived value of design and illustration

Gary Fogelson: people don't value photography because they think that if they had the right camera they could do your job

6:35 PM

Rich Gin: tough break

Gary Fogelson: too bad it's true

Rich Gin: Have you had this conversation w/ Jac?

Gary Fogelson: all the time

Rich Gin: lol

Rich Gin: life is unbearable

Gary Fogelson: it's a huge problem

Gary Fogelson: for photographers

Gary Fogelson: it sucks

Gary Fogelson: edit

Gary Fogelson: for photographers that want to make money

Rich Gin: truth bomb

Gary Fogelson: i mean, we wanted her to shoot a job for us but they couldn't afford her
so we ended up doing it ourselves

Gary Fogelson: and it was kind of wack

Gary Fogelson: i mean

Gary Fogelson: we got good stuff

Gary Fogelson: but hers would have been so much better

Gary Fogelson: but there's nothing we could do

Gary Fogelson: alo

Gary Fogelson: ha

Gary Fogelson: also

Gary Fogelson: flickr sucks for that shit too

Rich Gin: When I was first starting work in television, there was a spell where I was doing low-budget jobs, but people would still give you a token amount (which usually accounted for transportation) out of an overall respect for your time and because you are MORE LIKELY to have someone do something for you if it seems like you are making an effort.

Rich Gin: They got me through Ted.

Rich Gin: Flickr is an unfortunate situation, really.

Gary Fogelson: i mean

Gary Fogelson: people can treat flickr like a stock source

Gary Fogelson: and most flickr users are willing to do it for little compensation since they already took the photo and they're amateurs

Rich Gin: people DO treat Flickr like a stock source. You saw the shit in the NYT, right?

Gary Fogelson: digital cameras also suck

Gary Fogelson: no i didn't

Rich Gin: http://www.aphotoeditor.com/2009/06/25/nytimes-advocates-stealing-photos-from-flickr-to-decorate/

Gary Fogelson: yeah...

Gary Fogelson: i dunno bout that one though

Gary Fogelson: it's your fault for posting a high res photo

Gary Fogelson: that's why flickr is tarded

Gary Fogelson: for example

Gary Fogelson: from my POV, since i'm not a professional photographer

Gary Fogelson: if someone printed out a photo of mine and framed it, i'd be weired

Gary Fogelson: weirded

Gary Fogelson: but i wouldn't be banging down their door for some money

Gary Fogelson: because it's not my livelihood

Gary Fogelson: but that's how most of flickr is

Gary Fogelson: which causes this problem for the whole industry

Gary Fogelson: the concept of photography as open source or something

6:45 PM

Rich Gin: It's a tiring argument and discussion to have, I guess. I've had it many times myself. I just never thought to ask someone who makes visual stuff for a living

Gary Fogelson: yeah

Gary Fogelson: it's just a value issue

Rich Gin: "visual stuff" /= photography

Gary Fogelson: right

Gary Fogelson: also

Gary Fogelson: i think people also look at photography differently than design because photographers are
"just" capturing images that already exist

Gary Fogelson: (not my opinion)

Rich Gin: true

Gary Fogelson: as opposed to designers, artists, etc who are making it up from nowhere

6:50 PM

Rich Gin: semantic point: I think the use of "capturing" to describe the manufacturing process of photographs is lame. It's like you're a kid in a field hunting for butterflies or some shit.

Gary Fogelson: that's sort of my point

Gary Fogelson: although it depends on the photographer

Gary Fogelson: in the case of the photographs i take, that's all i'm doing

Gary Fogelson: but not in the case of jacqueline

Gary Fogelson: or you for that matter

Rich Gin: You honor me

7:00 PM

Gary Fogelson: ha

Rich Gin: I should just become one of those dudes that sells sunset pictures on the boardwalk

Gary Fogelson: totally

Gary Fogelson: no shortage of sunsets

Rich Gin: like Thomas Kinkade without the shifty Christianity and franchising.

7:05 PM

Gary Fogelson: true

Rich Gin: I have to go talk to some food about this.

Gary Fogelson: okay

Gary Fogelson: have fun

Rich Gin: would you mind terribly if I blogged this? I need something to fill 1's and 0's with.

Gary Fogelson: nope

Gary Fogelson: i don't know what that means though

Gary Fogelson: 1's and 0's

Gary Fogelson: not "blogged"

Gary Fogelson: i'm familiar with that

Rich Gin: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Binary_numeral_system

Gary Fogelson: oh those kinds of 1's and 0's

Gary Fogelson: i'm familiar with those

An afterthought of sorts. There is never enough work to go around -- anyone working in a creative field or freelancing knows this, but asking people to provide work for free isn't providing a job. I had mentioned my past experiences getting into production work when I was first out of school; an honorarium for the worker to show appreciation for spent time. In retrospect, it's a remarkable thing how much you can get out of someone just for showing the consideration. That's where my real beef in all this is: The lack of consideration by a publication for the providers of their content. Their unwillingness to pay or claims of poverty suggest,

1) Evidence of their broken system (this is not even a controversial point these days).

2) Their lack of respect for their providers (we need stuff to fill space, but we really don't care what it is, otherwise we would go through the effort to get full cooperation of the best-qualified sources).

3) A lack of respect for their own product (see: #2).

I hope this will be my last public conversation about this, though I am sure it won't. I already have follow-up questions for other people in other industries about this same sort of thing.

This is Just to Say

To all,
The sirs and madams
who want to use
my pictures,

And have high hopes
and genuine wishes
of convincing me
to do so;

You should really have
cash
or check
in hand.

In Local News...

Just walked down Smith St. and watched the paps stalking our friendly local celebrity. They were trying to be so sly about it too -- standing on the corner with their phones to their ears (pretending to call, surely -- why would they want to give anyone else info on where they were or who they were shooting?). Playacting as if their job was important or high-intensity. When she walked past they would hurry along behind her on the opposite side of the street; it just seemed so unnecessary. Granted, I've seen celebrity hunting in Manhattan many, many times and it seems unnecessary there too but now it was too close to home. There's definitely a bad taste in my mouth.

AND YET THERE IS MUSIC

IGNORE PREVIOUS BLOG POST ABORT DO NOT GO TO CRASH MANSION TONIGHT NO HAY BANDA -- THERE IS NO BAND.

It's An Oldie Where I Come From

The Sleepies

It's a shame they don't allow smoking in bars. It's a shame that smoke machines are probably worse than cigarette smoke.


The Knockdowns

Also, happy birthday Corin Tucker! Please come back to us!

Help Me, Alex. Help Me Help You

I'm going to invent the genre of "Classic Punk" to occupy the same niche as "Classic Rock," as in 'we've come to change the future of Classic Punk forever,' or 'they sound very Classic Punk.' They'll hate me for it, but I want to think Consumer Feedback lives in that space.

Further,

Dear Knitting Factory,

Why come you don't turn no lights on for the afternoon shows? I know the lights exist physically -- I can see them with my naked eye and I've seen them turned on in the past. Are you saving that much money? Are you comfortable with your lack of effort? Is there an image of slapdash fuck-it-all-ness you're trying to maintain? Are they broken? For God's sake don't try to make things look cool -- that would break my heart.

Sincerely,

Richard Gin

P.S. I look forward to you moving to the current Luna Lounge space and somehow managing to make the lighting worse. See you next year!

If You And Your Friends Are In The Dark, You Are Hidden People.

I have to say, while I love all my friends' bands (here, Hidden People), I really, REALLY wish they'd play venues with grown up lighting design instead of, say, fucking Christmas lights (see below).



I'd much rather shoot ambient without having to ramp up the ASA all the way and open all the way wide. Fun things happen when you have enough light to shoot with without augmenting.

Pitchfork

This is really inexcusable. Over at ILX bagging on Pitchfork is basically a sport, but for some reason I take shit like this personally. How hard is it for the most-read* music review site on the internet to get someone to take quality pictures; or even a notch above amateur. I'm not talking about people like Todd or Kathryn Yu, both of whom are All-City type talents. It's not like this is Podunk, Arkansas we're talking about. This is Chicago.

*This might not be true. File under "Stat-free Analysis."

Where We're From, The Birds Sing A Pretty Song

Subtitled: Emo Bird Is Emo



Today, sharing images with you brings me no joy, and I think my dead-bird friend here kind of says it all.

I'm getting audited and as much as I'd like to play it off as another life experience, it's a very lonely feeling right now, especially since they're asking for info from 2005 which I don't really have in any sort of complete form, and there's a big chunk of change that they're curious about that I have no documentation on AT ALL. I certainly won't have it by Monday (which is Opening Day, the first day of Spring). The numbers that we're talking about in terms of money are sort of nebulous to me and I have no cotton-pickin' idea why they'd want to audit me to begin with, short of 2005 being the first year I actually rose above the poverty line.

I've been asked by my friends, who are fearful of the same thing happening to them, to take good notes ... So in short terms, let this be a lesson to you, kiddies: keep EVERYTHING. One of my head-slapping moments was realizing that I had shredded 2005's phone bills literally 12 hours before the audit summons arrived in the mail. That said, they say to keep this sort of shit for 7 years. There isn't that much space in my universe.

These Are (Still) Powers

So got the film back after switching labs, and I'm disappointed with the results. Poor scan quality (looking at the negatives there's clearly more information there), and some of them had hypo-stains drooled all over them. To be fair, the little man behind the counter said they would be low res scans... but still a capital "M," Major, captial "B," Bummer. So the side-by-side comparisons might not be too worthwhile. Project abandoned.

I wonder though, what they process B&W with because I remember getting very nice, soft results with Ye Old Art School Standby D-76.



We'll try again this week with some Ilford ASA 3200 when Knife Fight plays Union Hall on Saturday night. No hyperlink to Union Hall. If you don't know where it is then...

Ironic Photos of Monticello New York Kennel Club Dog Show, Secaucus, NJ, 2007

This is another series that came about from a work situation, and the pictures I took might hint at my frame of mind more so than I'd like to make public. I speak of course about my great dislike of most people and fondness for animals, who are of course innocents in all of the nonsense of this world. And at the dog show, both my likes and dislikes collided in spectacular fashion.

There's a Bresson quote about a connection that needs to be made between "...the eye and the heart" and while it may be true, the question is what I see in my heart when I take something like this:



Bresson and Avedon and Penn and Edward Steichen and all the other great photographers had and have a great fondness for the people of this world and the connection to their place in it is what made and makes them great. My distrust and distaste for people shows through, I think, and I wonder if it holds me back creatively. Suze (see previous entry here), in one of her finer moments said that I can't take pretty pictures of people, that I took 'warts 'n' all' pictures and that my inability to do an unselfconciously flattering portrait was a great talent that I should embrace. It's all well and good, I suppouse, to be gifted (if true) with a predisposition to recognizing ugliness or some God-awful truth about humanity, but it doesn't really sell. Even Natchwey sees something beautiful in the struggle. I don't know if I do.

And back to my previous thoughts about the Flickr web-hit flow of traffic. Assume for a minute that I take unflattering pictures as a rule and that someday I am great at it -- I wonder if someone will see these pictures, and know a person in them and understand that I take unflattering pictures. Or if they'll see them, and ask they be taken down because of it.

SUNY Purchase

I was up in Purchase (so sayeth the title) today to do some stuff for Pepsi Corporate and had lunch with Cameraman D. (dry personality, like mine, and all around good guy). We talked about this and that like most of us do when we've nothing to do before working and I snapped this one off. Of course, the Polaroid back is always a conversation starter and so we chatted about that for a while. I told him the reason I brought it out was because of the warm weather and how the emulsion was freezing the last time I tried to shoot with it and got into the particulars of shooting with something with no viewfinder and how the tendency leans toward centering the subject. I also told him that I didn't want to become one of those photographers who's nothing more than an advanced amateur.

On the way back I stole this on the West Side Highway.

Strong

I had forgotten today was a holiday and almost missed my train to HOFSTRA UNIVERSITY to work for PBS slinging boom for some public-forum type show that I'd never seen or heard of before. At least I didn't have to hump my full rig out onto The Island. The day was zero-sum, sadly -- I had spent roughly the amount of my paycheck to get to Hempstead, buy breakfast, take a car from my place to the train station and purchase this little number,



so I could listen to myself as I boom'd.

On the plus side, I got a ride back home in the crew minivan -- after I had purchased the round trip ticket to Brooklyn, of course. THESE THINGS HAPPEN. In related news, my right arm is killing me.

Marc Jacobs and Stasis

Got backstage at the Marc Jacobs show yet again and I'm in a bit of a rut. The picture above... well, I've taken it before, and it seems like the whole event was compressed anyway (and not in a good way; i.e. 'starting on time'), so I fell back on safety shots that I knew would work.

I guess these things happen, and it looks like this season will be a wash for me; officially I'm only on for two more days and I haven't even made it into the Tents yet, and if I DO go, I'll have to go on my own.

On the plus side, the crew and I snuck up into the balcony of the Armory, which might have been the best place to see this particular show, what with the living tableau,



Irrespective of nothing: CINDY SHERMAN WAS AT THE SHOW AND SHE LOOKED AT ME.

Fashion Week Arrives; RG Barely Cares

Fashion Week (Fall, '07) is here and this might be the first time in a long while that I don't particularly care whether I participate or not. My once week-long shifts have been dropped down to 4 or 5 days (depending) and the access I used to get has been reduced to 'whenever the talent decided to go to the tents... then you too will go. No, you don't need a press pass.' So as someone who has a history of exploiting access for his own gain, this is a sad development indeed (cf. the 'People' section of the main webpage with the Betsy Johnson stuff).

I was at the Lisa Perry launch party last night (see above). There were tiny hamburgers and tiny french-fried potatoes and tiny lobster rolls. We didn't get into the Gotham Mag party because the 5-0 shut it down for some reason. Apparently Oksana Baiul got in eventually. So... not much to speak of yet, especially in terms of pre-game parties, as it were.

This is not starting well.

Playing Catch-Up Yet Again

It feels like I'm primarily using this Blog-thing to catch up on releasing stuff from last year, and feel a little lame about it -- I really only had two resolutions this year:

1) To make crisp decisions.

2) To make sure I didn't bitch out and carry my camera At All Times (emphasis mine) no matter how heavy it got.

Neither have been lived up to with any sort of regularity.

Anyway, this is Anna from These Are Powers from November of last year when they opened for The Fall. Sadly, I only saw their set because of an outstanding comittment to work at 6 AM the next day. These things happen. I'm pushing for the 7" cover with this particular one.

Animals, Animals, Animals

When I first got my Holgaroid (after much searching and hand wringing and research as to whether the stock would be discontinued* or whether I could even find one in the tri-state area), my first thought was, "OMG NOW I CAN MAKE ART BLABLAZOOBOYYARLYNOWAI!" which I think is a fine attitude to take with something like this. Of course, having not had a darkroom since college, any sort of immediate gratification when it comes to appreciating your own crapulence is... appreciated. Plus I love toy cameras. So when I combine Favorite Number 1 (toy camera) with what may be my favorite place in New York (North American Mammals wing; American Museum Of Natural History), I get happier than a fruit fly in an orchard.

More at the Flickr site here

*Of course, the stock was discontinued as of the first of the year. An unfavorable start, to be sure. I'm doing the math to see if I can easily adapt the back to take (what I guess would be...) the 600-series. Any ideas?